10 Questions for Kim Eisler

Nick Gaffney, a columnist for Marketing the Law Firm and a partner at Infinite Public Relations in San Francisco, recently had an exclusive interview with Mr. Kim Eisler, author of “Masters of the Game: Inside the World's Most Powerful Law Firm.”

Veteran legal issues reporter Kim Eisler's new book goes behind the scenes at law firm Williams & Connolly, which he describes as the most powerful firm in the world. We caught up with Kim and asked how he got the secretive firm to open up, what it takes for a firm to achieve such lofty status, and what other firms can learn from this.

1. Q.: Kim, Williams & Connolly is notoriously tight-lipped when it comes to media. How did you get them to talk? And why now?

A.: Over a quarter of a century of covering law firms ' I began writing law practice news for the Los Angeles Daily Journal in 1985 ' I developed a relationship with several of the Williams & Connolly partners, starting with Larry Lucchino in 1987 when I moved to Legal Times. Over the years I developed professional relationships with four of the five lawyers that I feature in my book: Kendall, Lucchino, Sullivan and Robert Barnett. I came to know Greg Craig also, but not as well as the others. Brendan Sullivan said I was the first journalist with whom he had lunch in 10 years when he took me to Washington's Metropolitan Club. I think that over the years they had come to both respect and personally like me.

2. Q.: You call the firm the “most powerful in the world” ' that's quite a statement. How did the firm react? How did other law firms react?

A.: At least one lawyer/reviewer from a firm in Palo Alto has complained that my thesis suffers from “myopia” and an assumption that Washington is the most powerful place in the world. He claims W&C does nothing more than do book deals and standard litigation. I admit Washington is no Palo Alto, but last time I looked it was the capital of the most powerful nation on earth; and W&C represents the current President, and the past two Presidents, as well as Mrs. Reagan and the Reagan Library. I make the point in the book that W&C is the only firm that can say it represented both a President and the man who shot a President, Hinckley. They also represent numerous countries in South America, as well as former British Prime Minister Tony Blair, and have deep ties and tentacles to the CIA. They have represented several former directors of national intelligence, which I mention in the book. So I think there is a certain jealousy being expressed by some who have felt their sting. Williams & Connolly doesn't win popularity contests, and they don't try to.

3. Q.: How do you explain the seemingly confounding notion that the less Williams & Connolly courts the media, the more accolades the firm amasses?

 A.: I think that secretly, reporters and editors admire people and firms that don't shamelessly promote themselves, as has become the current style. I spoke at one firm recently and thought that the people in the room were summer associates. It turned out they were all marketing and PR people! There is something refreshing in this day and age about the notion that winning in itself will get noticed and that alert reporters, like myself, can find top talent and the best stories without being guided to it, especially when Williams & Connolly was already involved in the most interesting and high-profile cases. Although I say their lawyers, particularly David Kendall, don't court the press or often hold press conferences or issue press releases, they aren't exactly hidden either. But more often than not, they do their talking in the courtroom and not on the steps of the federal building.

4. Q.: In the book, you contrast Williams & Connolly with other firms. What can other firms learn from Williams & Connolly?

A.: W&C differs from other firms in two major respects: They don't poach rivals for laterals, and they have never established an outside office. By not seeking out high-ego practitioners, they have avoided many of the internal battles and disputes that have plagued many of their large rivals. A W&C lawyer is absorbed from youth into the firm's elite culture, which partners describe as being akin to being in an elite Marine commando unit. It is all for one and one for all. Everything they do is designed to avoid breeding contempt and rivalry between the partners. They save their vitriol for their legal opponents, prosecutors, and often the judges they oppose.

5. Q.: Can Williams & Connolly continue to play at this level after its current leaders retire?

A.: Williams & Connolly has some excellent young talent, including Kevin Downey, who represented former Fannie Mae head Franklin Raines; and Robert Cary, who second-chaired the Ted Stevens prosecution. They have lost a lot of talent over the years, including Jeff Kindler, Nicole Seligman, and Elena Kagan. Is there another litigator who will ever be like Brendan Sullivan, or anyone as smooth and influential as Robert Barnett, who represents presidents and foreign leaders? Probably not, and the temptation to make the mistakes ' like expanding to New York ' that the current partners have avoided, will be strong. The younger partners have already won some battles, particularly in competing with other firms on the pay scale for top law clerks, that some of the older partners think is unnecessary. So it remains to be seen if their unique culture and joie de'vivre can be maintained. Perhaps it will be to some extent, but to be honest, the history of the firm is tied to partners who studied under and knew Edward Bennett Williams personally. That is the one thing that the younger partners will never have the opportunity to say.

6. Q.: How has the book been received?

 A.: All I can say is that noted criminal defense lawyer Michael Tigar, now a professor at American University and a former WC partner, called it a “major accomplishment,” and said whatever success it has is “richly deserved.”

7. Q.: Who in the legal business should read the book and why?

A.: Litigators will certainly enjoy the war stories involving Brendan Sullivan as well as some of the candid comments he made about his cases that he would never have made to any other writer. Nadine Strossen of New York University Law School has observed that this book should be read by anyone contemplating a career in law. More so than any other firm history or biography, this book really shows what it is like down in the trenches, as well as what can be accomplished through a career in law ' a life of action and consequence as opposed to being locked away doing insurance subrogation.

8. Q.: PR people, like myself, don't fare very well in your book. What can we do better?

A.: I have found over the years that many firm-marketing types don't even familiarize themselves with the outlets that might be interested in their partners' practices. Frequently, their pitches are inappropriate and a waste of time for your particular publication. I found over the years that often they would pitch a partner, and then the partner would have no interest in telling his story or even identifying anything he had worked on. That could get very frustrating. If lawyers want to hire PR people, then they should try to be open and candid once the reporter calls. If a Williams & Connolly partner has no comment, I respect that. No one from there has ever called me and told me to call Lawyer X. But if you get a call from a PR person to get a comment from somebody, then the person has nothing to say, it's embarrassing and a waste of time as well. I have encountered very good PR people for law firms and I know their job is not always easy. But many are just clueless and needlessly persistent. I think most reporters appreciate finding stuff themselves and not being directed to the obvious.

9. Q.: Are there other law firms that can be the “next” Williams & Connolly, or is this a once-in-a-lifetime firm?

A.: I don't think any other firm will have the breadth of political influence that Williams & Connolly has accumulated through the amazing practice of Robert Barnett, who moves world leaders, cabinet secretaries, and media anchors around like pieces on a chessboard. I doubt that practice will ever be replicated. I have a sense that in litigation, Brendan Sullivan is also one of a kind. There are many good criminal defense lawyers in Washington, especially Tom Green of Sidley & Austin. But nobody else brings Sullivan's edge and intensity. One of the most interesting parts of the book for lawyers will be to learn how it was that Sullivan developed his genuine hatred of authority. It wasn't something manufactured or artificial. But I reveal why and how it became real and authentic, and I think lawyers will enjoy finding out the back story behind Brendan's passion.1

0. Q.: What's up next for you?

A.: I am currently finishing up a non-fiction novel ' Norman Mailer style ' about a rape case that William Kunstler tried in the early 1960s. The story is about how Kunstler came to the aid of a young black defendant who had been tried, convicted, and sentenced to die for a rape in which the victim was unable to identify the defendant; and ultimately saved the young man's life. It becomes a book about race relations in the civilized upper south Virginia, as opposed to Mississippi, shall we say, and how Virginians justified racism on paternalistic grounds. Ultimately, in the spirit of Bernard Malamud's “The Fixer,” the case became a lightning rod for change and self-examination, and involves people like Arthur Ashe and Jerry Falwell. The working title is “Four Cities of Youth.”

Nicholas Gaffney, a member of this newsletter's Board of Editors, is a lawyer and former journalist. Nick manages Infinite Public Relations' San Francisco office and can be reached at [email protected] or 415-732-7801.

Nick Gaffney, a columnist for Marketing the Law Firm and a partner at Infinite Public Relations in San Francisco, recently had an exclusive interview with Mr. Kim Eisler, author of “Masters of the Game: Inside the World's Most Powerful Law Firm.”

Veteran legal issues reporter Kim Eisler's new book goes behind the scenes at law firm Williams & Connolly, which he describes as the most powerful firm in the world. We caught up with Kim and asked how he got the secretive firm to open up, what it takes for a firm to achieve such lofty status, and what other firms can learn from this.

1. Q.: Kim, Williams & Connolly is notoriously tight-lipped when it comes to media. How did you get them to talk? And why now?

A.: Over a quarter of a century of covering law firms ' I began writing law practice news for the Los Angeles Daily Journal in 1985 ' I developed a relationship with several of the Williams & Connolly partners, starting with Larry Lucchino in 1987 when I moved to Legal Times. Over the years I developed professional relationships with four of the five lawyers that I feature in my book: Kendall, Lucchino, Sullivan and Robert Barnett. I came to know Greg Craig also, but not as well as the others. Brendan Sullivan said I was the first journalist with whom he had lunch in 10 years when he took me to Washington's Metropolitan Club. I think that over the years they had come to both respect and personally like me.

2. Q.: You call the firm the “most powerful in the world” ' that's quite a statement. How did the firm react? How did other law firms react?

A.: At least one lawyer/reviewer from a firm in Palo Alto has complained that my thesis suffers from “myopia” and an assumption that Washington is the most powerful place in the world. He claims W&C does nothing more than do book deals and standard litigation. I admit Washington is no Palo Alto, but last time I looked it was the capital of the most powerful nation on earth; and W&C represents the current President, and the past two Presidents, as well as Mrs. Reagan and the Reagan Library. I make the point in the book that W&C is the only firm that can say it represented both a President and the man who shot a President, Hinckley. They also represent numerous countries in South America, as well as former British Prime Minister Tony Blair, and have deep ties and tentacles to the CIA. They have represented several former directors of national intelligence, which I mention in the book. So I think there is a certain jealousy being expressed by some who have felt their sting. Williams & Connolly doesn't win popularity contests, and they don't try to.

3. Q.: How do you explain the seemingly confounding notion that the less Williams & Connolly courts the media, the more accolades the firm amasses?

 A.: I think that secretly, reporters and editors admire people and firms that don't shamelessly promote themselves, as has become the current style. I spoke at one firm recently and thought that the people in the room were summer associates. It turned out they were all marketing and PR people! There is something refreshing in this day and age about the notion that winning in itself will get noticed and that alert reporters, like myself, can find top talent and the best stories without being guided to it, especially when Williams & Connolly was already involved in the most interesting and high-profile cases. Although I say their lawyers, particularly David Kendall, don't court the press or often hold press conferences or issue press releases, they aren't exactly hidden either. But more often than not, they do their talking in the courtroom and not on the steps of the federal building.

4. Q.: In the book, you contrast Williams & Connolly with other firms. What can other firms learn from Williams & Connolly?

A.: W&C differs from other firms in two major respects: They don't poach rivals for laterals, and they have never established an outside office. By not seeking out high-ego practitioners, they have avoided many of the internal battles and disputes that have plagued many of their large rivals. A W&C lawyer is absorbed from youth into the firm's elite culture, which partners describe as being akin to being in an elite Marine commando unit. It is all for one and one for all. Everything they do is designed to avoid breeding contempt and rivalry between the partners. They save their vitriol for their legal opponents, prosecutors, and often the judges they oppose.

5. Q.: Can Williams & Connolly continue to play at this level after its current leaders retire?

A.: Williams & Connolly has some excellent young talent, including Kevin Downey, who represented former Fannie Mae head Franklin Raines; and Robert Cary, who second-chaired the Ted Stevens prosecution. They have lost a lot of talent over the years, including Jeff Kindler, Nicole Seligman, and Elena Kagan. Is there another litigator who will ever be like Brendan Sullivan, or anyone as smooth and influential as Robert Barnett, who represents presidents and foreign leaders? Probably not, and the temptation to make the mistakes ' like expanding to New York ' that the current partners have avoided, will be strong. The younger partners have already won some battles, particularly in competing with other firms on the pay scale for top law clerks, that some of the older partners think is unnecessary. So it remains to be seen if their unique culture and joie de'vivre can be maintained. Perhaps it will be to some extent, but to be honest, the history of the firm is tied to partners who studied under and knew Edward Bennett Williams personally. That is the one thing that the younger partners will never have the opportunity to say.

6. Q.: How has the book been received?

 A.: All I can say is that noted criminal defense lawyer Michael Tigar, now a professor at American University and a former WC partner, called it a “major accomplishment,” and said whatever success it has is “richly deserved.”

7. Q.: Who in the legal business should read the book and why?

A.: Litigators will certainly enjoy the war stories involving Brendan Sullivan as well as some of the candid comments he made about his cases that he would never have made to any other writer. Nadine Strossen of New York University Law School has observed that this book should be read by anyone contemplating a career in law. More so than any other firm history or biography, this book really shows what it is like down in the trenches, as well as what can be accomplished through a career in law ' a life of action and consequence as opposed to being locked away doing insurance subrogation.

8. Q.: PR people, like myself, don't fare very well in your book. What can we do better?

A.: I have found over the years that many firm-marketing types don't even familiarize themselves with the outlets that might be interested in their partners' practices. Frequently, their pitches are inappropriate and a waste of time for your particular publication. I found over the years that often they would pitch a partner, and then the partner would have no interest in telling his story or even identifying anything he had worked on. That could get very frustrating. If lawyers want to hire PR people, then they should try to be open and candid once the reporter calls. If a Williams & Connolly partner has no comment, I respect that. No one from there has ever called me and told me to call Lawyer X. But if you get a call from a PR person to get a comment from somebody, then the person has nothing to say, it's embarrassing and a waste of time as well. I have encountered very good PR people for law firms and I know their job is not always easy. But many are just clueless and needlessly persistent. I think most reporters appreciate finding stuff themselves and not being directed to the obvious.

9. Q.: Are there other law firms that can be the “next” Williams & Connolly, or is this a once-in-a-lifetime firm?

A.: I don't think any other firm will have the breadth of political influence that Williams & Connolly has accumulated through the amazing practice of Robert Barnett, who moves world leaders, cabinet secretaries, and media anchors around like pieces on a chessboard. I doubt that practice will ever be replicated. I have a sense that in litigation, Brendan Sullivan is also one of a kind. There are many good criminal defense lawyers in Washington, especially Tom Green of Sidley & Austin. But nobody else brings Sullivan's edge and intensity. One of the most interesting parts of the book for lawyers will be to learn how it was that Sullivan developed his genuine hatred of authority. It wasn't something manufactured or artificial. But I reveal why and how it became real and authentic, and I think lawyers will enjoy finding out the back story behind Brendan's passion.1

0. Q.: What's up next for you?

A.: I am currently finishing up a non-fiction novel ' Norman Mailer style ' about a rape case that William Kunstler tried in the early 1960s. The story is about how Kunstler came to the aid of a young black defendant who had been tried, convicted, and sentenced to die for a rape in which the victim was unable to identify the defendant; and ultimately saved the young man's life. It becomes a book about race relations in the civilized upper south Virginia, as opposed to Mississippi, shall we say, and how Virginians justified racism on paternalistic grounds. Ultimately, in the spirit of Bernard Malamud's “The Fixer,” the case became a lightning rod for change and self-examination, and involves people like Arthur Ashe and Jerry Falwell. The working title is “Four Cities of Youth.”

Nicholas Gaffney, a member of this newsletter's Board of Editors, is a lawyer and former journalist. Nick manages Infinite Public Relations' San Francisco office and can be reached at [email protected] or 415-732-7801.